With respect to WW2, that is a slight oversimplification of what happened.
French and British leaders did not want another world war. (France barely survived WW1) They believed, incorrectly, that Hitler did not want a war. Also, they had recognized that the Treaty of Versailles was unfair and was attempting to correct that treaty.
Rightly or wrongly, they believed that the Soviet Union was a bigger threat (Communism was meant to spread by any means necessary and there is no real difference between fascism and communism, both are tyrannical) . Eastern Europe had every reason to fear the Soviet Union considering the Russians were a historical enemy of Eastern Europe.
The leaders of England and France honestly believed that Hitler would come and go.
(Also, the US was in isolations mode, it was FDR, like Churchill who recognized the threat of Hitler. )
Jim Stalin's fight against Trotsky was over the latter'advocacy of 'permanent revolution" and his own concept of 'Socialism in one Country." It's not that Stalin was anything but a power obsessed dictator but that he really had no interest in world revolution. Once he cleared out Trotsky and other left Bolsheviks, he went on to undermine communist movements in mudh of Europe, the US and working with the Republican forces in the Spanish Civil War. His reason was to make the Soviet Union less threatening to the leading capitalist countries. He knew Hitler would be attacking he USSR. It was the US and Britain that sought to crush the Russian revolution almost as soon as it ousted the Duma and took over the Russian government. It is your history of the prewar years heading into WWII that is oversimplifying things. The real unfortunate thing is that the US betryed its Soviet ally during the war by trying to builf the atom bomb in secret rfrom then, and then to start industrializing production of the new uranium and plutonium bombs even before the Japanese had surrendered, and then assiduously working to flip thr propaganda to make Americans see the USSra they'f been rooting for for the last three years of the war as now the. mortal enemy of the US. Had that not happened, and had the the US included Soviet scientists in the Manhattan Projedt, the allies would have gotten the bomb sooner,and could have worked to see it banned .After the war if the US hsd included the war-ravaged SovietUnion in the Marshall Plan, this would be a very different world today.
The problem is perception. Communism is based on the notion of spreading by any means necessary. While Stalin may have had no interest in spreading communism, communism is based on the notion of spreading. So I do understand why world leaders were concerned. (And BTW, the early invasion of Russia orchestrated by GB and American was 100 percent wrong. That did create more problems)
If I recall, the Soviet Union had already started dominating Eastern Europe at that time (Russia/Soviet Union historically viewed Eastern Europe the same way we viewed Central and South America. And the way we viewed Central and South America was horrible) Including the Soviet Union in the Marshal plan, even assuming they accepted said help, would have been problematic to say the least.
And lets be honest, the Soviet Union would never had agreed to ban the bomb. They wanted it as much as we did. They were researching it as hard as we were. Just as we would have gotten it sooner, so would the had gotten it sooner.
Also, I am almost positive Stalin did not believe Hitler was going to attack them. The reason why Soviets took staggering looses in the early days of the invasion was Stalin ignored reports of a possible invasion.
BTW, I thought the Soviet Union aided the communists during the Spanish revolution. I will have to research that point :)
JIm, your statement that "communism is based on the notion of spreading is nonsense. It it capitalism that inherertly has to grow and spread to survive. Capitalism, and espedially modern capitalism where the owners dare only agout return on infestment as expressed in increased sharew value, and noty profit on produdtion, has to keep growing by 10% or even 15% a year, whih of course is impossible as the total value keeps growing meaning the percent of profit growth has to keep growing too inevitably leads to a saturateed market ane drawh, unless the firm or the nation dan find new markets. The whole thing is a crazy ponI aschenme in the end. A Sodialist economy (or true communist one basee on the principle of from each acdording to his/her ability and to each accoreing to her/his need, and that need not grow by more than the population grows. The reason comunist leaferss like Trotsky and Lenin called for support of world-wide proletarian revolutions was because they corredtly realized thta their revolution would fail in Russia alone as Russia was such a primative agrarian society iit dould not satisfy the enormous needs of that population, and would be strangled by economic war by the capitalists aroad who feared the spread of socialist ideology. And indeed anywhere sodialists have won power, whether by revolution as in Russia, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, or by erledtion as in Australia (Gough Whitlam) or Chile (Salvador Allende-Gossens), or the Communistw in Italy they have immediately found themselve facing a US- funded civil war or dounter -revolution or prolonged economic sabotage.
As for your vlaim thqt Russia would never ban the bomb, it was demonstrably the US that did not want to ban it, but wanted to use its 1945 monopoly on the bomb (wich its experts were claiming would take the Soviets a decade to obtain) to ontrol the globe and had immediately set out tp build 400 Nagasakii-sized bombs to "destroy the Soviet Union as an inddustrial society." I document that reality in my book "Spy for No Country: The Story of Ted Hall, the Teenage Atomic Spy Who May Have Saved the World" (Prometheus Books, 2024)
'The reason comunist leaferss like Trotsky and Lenin called for support of world-wide proletarian revolutions was because they corredtly realized thta their revolution would fail in Russia alone as Russia was such a primative agrarian society iit dould not satisfy the enormous needs of that population, and would be strangled by economic war by the capitalists aroad who feared the spread of socialist ideology. '
Karl Marx also called for world-wide proletarian revolution before the Soviet Union even existed. And that does sound like spreading by any means necessary.
I am not saying capitalism is perfect. But it is better than socialism or communism.
And I have no problem with the notion that the US did not want to ban the bomb. My only point is that the Soviets did not want to ban the bomb either.
I should also add that I have no problem with government programs that aid people. A healthy society should have welfare program as well as strict controls on insurance industry (medical as well as other forms of insurance). A pure capitalist/libertarian society is just as bad as a pure socialist/communist society.
Thank you. This is an overview I wish more Americans would read. The counter narrative serve been sold is so weak hey people ignorant of history seem to buy it
Yes indeed! Those interested in learning more about what Americans aren't taught ought to read commenter Ron Ridenour's important book "The Russian Peace Threat," which with great detail and supporting links shows how from the very start of the Russian revolution in 1917 during WWI, the US and the major industrial capitalist nations of Europe united to try and crush that world's first Communist governnment, in America's case sending tens of thousands of US Marines to support the White Russian side counter-revolutionary force in the brutal Civil War. This miliitant antipathy towards Ruaasai/USSR has continued ever since, with the brief exception of support, after HItler attacked the USSR and the us provided significant military weapons to back the Red Army on Hitler's eastern front. See https://ronridenour.com/articles/2018/0630-rr.htm
Excellent historical analysis so necessary given the lying discourse coming from the MSM/US-European politicians aimed at brainwashing their populations readying them to make war against the Russian people whom the West have long sought to conquer.
So necessary to tell our readers what Dave has written here concerning Truman's/Churchill plans to nuck 100 cities in the SU in 1950-1 only stopped because two Manhattan Project scientists shared atomic bomb secrets with the Soviets.
So ncessary to tell our readers that it was Wall Street's biggest capitalist who helped finance German (and Italy) WWII warmaker in the hopes that fascism would triumph both in Europe and the US.
We can only truly be prepared for today and tomorrow by knowing and remembering history, how we got to where we are today.
If we do not take up the struggles for socialism, capitalism will bury us all.
With respect to WW2, that is a slight oversimplification of what happened.
French and British leaders did not want another world war. (France barely survived WW1) They believed, incorrectly, that Hitler did not want a war. Also, they had recognized that the Treaty of Versailles was unfair and was attempting to correct that treaty.
Rightly or wrongly, they believed that the Soviet Union was a bigger threat (Communism was meant to spread by any means necessary and there is no real difference between fascism and communism, both are tyrannical) . Eastern Europe had every reason to fear the Soviet Union considering the Russians were a historical enemy of Eastern Europe.
The leaders of England and France honestly believed that Hitler would come and go.
(Also, the US was in isolations mode, it was FDR, like Churchill who recognized the threat of Hitler. )
To a certain extent hindsight is 2020.
Jim Stalin's fight against Trotsky was over the latter'advocacy of 'permanent revolution" and his own concept of 'Socialism in one Country." It's not that Stalin was anything but a power obsessed dictator but that he really had no interest in world revolution. Once he cleared out Trotsky and other left Bolsheviks, he went on to undermine communist movements in mudh of Europe, the US and working with the Republican forces in the Spanish Civil War. His reason was to make the Soviet Union less threatening to the leading capitalist countries. He knew Hitler would be attacking he USSR. It was the US and Britain that sought to crush the Russian revolution almost as soon as it ousted the Duma and took over the Russian government. It is your history of the prewar years heading into WWII that is oversimplifying things. The real unfortunate thing is that the US betryed its Soviet ally during the war by trying to builf the atom bomb in secret rfrom then, and then to start industrializing production of the new uranium and plutonium bombs even before the Japanese had surrendered, and then assiduously working to flip thr propaganda to make Americans see the USSra they'f been rooting for for the last three years of the war as now the. mortal enemy of the US. Had that not happened, and had the the US included Soviet scientists in the Manhattan Projedt, the allies would have gotten the bomb sooner,and could have worked to see it banned .After the war if the US hsd included the war-ravaged SovietUnion in the Marshall Plan, this would be a very different world today.
The problem is perception. Communism is based on the notion of spreading by any means necessary. While Stalin may have had no interest in spreading communism, communism is based on the notion of spreading. So I do understand why world leaders were concerned. (And BTW, the early invasion of Russia orchestrated by GB and American was 100 percent wrong. That did create more problems)
If I recall, the Soviet Union had already started dominating Eastern Europe at that time (Russia/Soviet Union historically viewed Eastern Europe the same way we viewed Central and South America. And the way we viewed Central and South America was horrible) Including the Soviet Union in the Marshal plan, even assuming they accepted said help, would have been problematic to say the least.
And lets be honest, the Soviet Union would never had agreed to ban the bomb. They wanted it as much as we did. They were researching it as hard as we were. Just as we would have gotten it sooner, so would the had gotten it sooner.
Also, I am almost positive Stalin did not believe Hitler was going to attack them. The reason why Soviets took staggering looses in the early days of the invasion was Stalin ignored reports of a possible invasion.
BTW, I thought the Soviet Union aided the communists during the Spanish revolution. I will have to research that point :)
JIm, your statement that "communism is based on the notion of spreading is nonsense. It it capitalism that inherertly has to grow and spread to survive. Capitalism, and espedially modern capitalism where the owners dare only agout return on infestment as expressed in increased sharew value, and noty profit on produdtion, has to keep growing by 10% or even 15% a year, whih of course is impossible as the total value keeps growing meaning the percent of profit growth has to keep growing too inevitably leads to a saturateed market ane drawh, unless the firm or the nation dan find new markets. The whole thing is a crazy ponI aschenme in the end. A Sodialist economy (or true communist one basee on the principle of from each acdording to his/her ability and to each accoreing to her/his need, and that need not grow by more than the population grows. The reason comunist leaferss like Trotsky and Lenin called for support of world-wide proletarian revolutions was because they corredtly realized thta their revolution would fail in Russia alone as Russia was such a primative agrarian society iit dould not satisfy the enormous needs of that population, and would be strangled by economic war by the capitalists aroad who feared the spread of socialist ideology. And indeed anywhere sodialists have won power, whether by revolution as in Russia, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, or by erledtion as in Australia (Gough Whitlam) or Chile (Salvador Allende-Gossens), or the Communistw in Italy they have immediately found themselve facing a US- funded civil war or dounter -revolution or prolonged economic sabotage.
As for your vlaim thqt Russia would never ban the bomb, it was demonstrably the US that did not want to ban it, but wanted to use its 1945 monopoly on the bomb (wich its experts were claiming would take the Soviets a decade to obtain) to ontrol the globe and had immediately set out tp build 400 Nagasakii-sized bombs to "destroy the Soviet Union as an inddustrial society." I document that reality in my book "Spy for No Country: The Story of Ted Hall, the Teenage Atomic Spy Who May Have Saved the World" (Prometheus Books, 2024)
'The reason comunist leaferss like Trotsky and Lenin called for support of world-wide proletarian revolutions was because they corredtly realized thta their revolution would fail in Russia alone as Russia was such a primative agrarian society iit dould not satisfy the enormous needs of that population, and would be strangled by economic war by the capitalists aroad who feared the spread of socialist ideology. '
Karl Marx also called for world-wide proletarian revolution before the Soviet Union even existed. And that does sound like spreading by any means necessary.
I am not saying capitalism is perfect. But it is better than socialism or communism.
And I have no problem with the notion that the US did not want to ban the bomb. My only point is that the Soviets did not want to ban the bomb either.
'I am not saying capitalism is perfect'
I should also add that I have no problem with government programs that aid people. A healthy society should have welfare program as well as strict controls on insurance industry (medical as well as other forms of insurance). A pure capitalist/libertarian society is just as bad as a pure socialist/communist society.
Thank you. This is an overview I wish more Americans would read. The counter narrative serve been sold is so weak hey people ignorant of history seem to buy it
We've, not serve
Yes indeed! Those interested in learning more about what Americans aren't taught ought to read commenter Ron Ridenour's important book "The Russian Peace Threat," which with great detail and supporting links shows how from the very start of the Russian revolution in 1917 during WWI, the US and the major industrial capitalist nations of Europe united to try and crush that world's first Communist governnment, in America's case sending tens of thousands of US Marines to support the White Russian side counter-revolutionary force in the brutal Civil War. This miliitant antipathy towards Ruaasai/USSR has continued ever since, with the brief exception of support, after HItler attacked the USSR and the us provided significant military weapons to back the Red Army on Hitler's eastern front. See https://ronridenour.com/articles/2018/0630-rr.htm
Excellent historical analysis so necessary given the lying discourse coming from the MSM/US-European politicians aimed at brainwashing their populations readying them to make war against the Russian people whom the West have long sought to conquer.
So necessary to tell our readers what Dave has written here concerning Truman's/Churchill plans to nuck 100 cities in the SU in 1950-1 only stopped because two Manhattan Project scientists shared atomic bomb secrets with the Soviets.
So ncessary to tell our readers that it was Wall Street's biggest capitalist who helped finance German (and Italy) WWII warmaker in the hopes that fascism would triumph both in Europe and the US.
We can only truly be prepared for today and tomorrow by knowing and remembering history, how we got to where we are today.
If we do not take up the struggles for socialism, capitalism will bury us all.
Ron Ridenour